This is my theory. Just like there are psychopaths and there are also psychopath hunters. All human societies have evolved both these "neurotypes" in numbers that are in rough game theoretic equilibrium. 10% of the population are psychopaths and psychopath adjacent. 10% are psychopath hunters who unlike the cluless remainder (80%) have an ingrained ability and motivation to sniff out psychopathic behaviour in the pack - a well developed amygdala perhaps? This group is sometimes described as "altruistic punishers" in literature (pop psychology?) who basically volunteer their efforts to fight off or punish offending acts of psychopathy
I agree that economic interests often determine values and beliefs, but the last paragraph here seems to convey a lot of “strict parent” feeling/logic. So maybe what “produces” the iconoclast mentality is experiencing the world through the paternalistic lens; in other words, the rebel warrior is the child of the strict parent/father. “It’s a tale as old as time,” as the strict parent might say.
Historical perspective, memories longer than goldfish and the ability/desire to read. How many people have said: you’re not the expert. Maybe not, but I can read!! 🙄 📚
As far as I can tell, the answer to your question is threefold:
1. Inner strength. Related to self-reliance and maturity. One needs to have met sufficiently large challenges in life to build character, without on the other hand having been broken by them.
2. Metaphysical grounding. One needs an inner compass. Many here would just call this faith.
3. Diligence. One needs to be willing to walk the walk.
Rebels willing to stand up to insanity: We love. We love the Earth. We love animals (even if we eat them). We love the wonder of children. We want to protect children from harm. WE realize that our life was given by the earth, from the earth, and we had better be for the earth, or it won;t be able to give more life like ours. We detest lies. We detest being manipulated, gaslighted, misled, misinformed. We value original thinking, adventures, explorations, dialogues that go to new understandings. I think most of us know that our life is not ours alone -- we BELONG to what I call "Family Earth" -- [My parents were opposed to negative emotions; we never learned healthy ways to manage anger, frustration, disappointment, sadness. I decided not to trust them on anything -- hence a stubborn independence and willingness to rely on my own sense of reality.
I was raised by hard working do it yourself people and this had and impact on me, but probably my greatest act of bucking the system was to raise my own kids, no daycare or even grandparents help. The first two kids, I lived in poverty but the noticable success came later because the girls have no recollection of doing without. My girls still love to shop at thrift stores. I had a travel trailer on Lake Isabella, east of Bakersfield. There are some precious memories in that trailer and I'm glad I chose to stay with them instead of using government paid daycare etc.
Agreed! There is nothing so game changing and personality maturing as the character building of both the stresses and the enjoyment of raising your children!
He actually says almost nothing about the indictments themselves. He's focused on propaganda and politics in general, and how people react to it, and _why_ they react that way. And I think the same reasons he talks about answer some of your questions as well.
He's long-winded, but I think it was still a _very_ good article.
Not that he has all the answers. Just some, I think. One that I don't think he _fully_ correctly answers was the question of WHY do we think? (Or not think?) It's not the same for everyone. (Or at least I don't think it is.) What causes people to fall for propaganda? What causes people to recognize it, think through it, and go 'this is garbage'? What causes people to instinctively reject it before they even fully think it through? He points out that some people have an instinct for 'feeling' the honesty (or lack thereof) of others that gets them labeled 'empaths'. Note that this is NOT the same as empathy. Empathy got way too many people to buy into the propaganda about 'saving grandma' and similar. I think he has a point, though I don't think it's _just_ this. Perhaps stubbornness can also be a cause too. A refusal to be bull-rushed into _any_ position, even by people you 'normally' agree with, would also fit the bill. A 'prove it' mentality, in other words. And there may well be others.
Propaganda is a powerful force, but people _can_ be trained (or train themselves) to see through it. I don't know if we ever actually did such training, but we at least didn't train people to just accept propaganda blindly. Now, unfortunately, we do. And a way to UNtrain as many as possible needs to be found. (Probably multiple ways.)
Thank you so much for your link to the midwesterndoctor’s essay about the Trump indictments and just about everything else I’m concerned about. You couldn’t possibly have known—or maybe you could have—how this longwinded but deeply insightful essay spoke to me. Do you ever read Charles Eisenstein’s substack? He turned me onto Toby Rogers and is another fresh thinker. Blessings.
Regarding your question of why progressives become authoritarian if i understood correctly that is the question.
If someone is raised from birth with a trusting world view, they may not be able to change overnight. For instance language is something a person learn effortlessly following birth (or maybe starting before). Lets say later on you move to a new language environment. Depending on how young you are and how adaptable your brain is, you may learn a new language quickly. That is comparable to earning a new attitude or perception. If you don't learn easily or have language aptitude. you may struggle with speaking a new language although the new information is all around you.
Perceptions and emotions are like language. Perceptual shortcuts are like taking a familiar road when we go somewhere, instead of cutting a new trail through the woods or planning a new route. Some perceptions we connect with moral biases. These prepackaged responses are helpful when dealing with complicated undertakings because we can shift some active sensing to the subconscious while engaging in activities that require more attention. Confronting new beliefs can cause cognitive dissonance when the new information conflicts with established patterns of thought and behavior. If a person is deeply embedded in erroneous beliefs accentuated by linked emotions or morals it may take more than simply getting new information to adapt to new pathways of behavior. Both the uncertainty of new and uncomfortable information and the emotions attached to previous experiences or learning can cause people to panic or revert to unhelpful previously learned behaviors, thus ignoring new information or reacting strongly against because it rquires a step outside customary boundaries. The current environment is made more difficult by the fact we are constantly confronted by full spectrum disinformation programming like Operation Mockingbird, which reinforces top down messaging.
This is an interesting idea. I moved to another country at 23 and leaned the language quickly despite it being possible to live here only speaking English. My experience is vastly different from that of other expats. I definitely had assumptions challenged and personal values reinforced despite obstacles. Plus the insights you gain and the way your brain changes when you speak multiple languages is really noticeable. All in all a good growth experience and replicable in many other situations. Just liked the language example as it applies to me perfectly.
Sir Toby, I don't have an answer to your questions, except to say being well-informed is critical to making good decisions, no matter what your political or social persuasion. However, I did have an 'aha' moment regarding the problem of the medical journals having been corrupted by Big Pharma, while watching Del Bigtree interview Dr. Brian Hooker about his new book Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed, co-written with RFK Jr. and now #11 on the NYTimes Best Seller's List. Dr. Hooker is the Chief Scientist for Children's Health Defense, and in his own words, he loves researching science and has a team of scientists working with him at CHD. Maybe Children's Health Defense could publish a scientific/medical journal, starting with all the fantastic papers that are currently being sidelined. What do you think of that?
“What produces the rebels who dedicate themselves to overthrowing corrupt systems rather than trying to fit in?”
The discernment for truth. Rebels have a highly-tuned bullshit meter, from birth. The truth, common sense and the ability to discern lies and pure stupidity is what makes a rebel. I believe rebels are born, not made.
Interesting thought: the old issue of nature vs nurture. Our educational systems, scaffolded by the majority thinking inherent in the relatively new disciplines of sociology and psychology created and injected their nurture theories into our western civilization.
While I don’t deny the influence of that thought, some common sense, brought about by critical thinking, personal observations, and simple logic helped me seriously question the premise of the impact of the large nurture hypothesis! I began questioning the validity of that supposition shortly after the birth of my twin daughters and two more children during my younger years raising them.
The result of my thinking and observations, based on hard science many decades ago,
Thank you for sharing this. There was a very popular saying I frequently heard while serving the the U.S. Army, Lead, Follow or Get the F' Out of the Way. I chose the 3rd option and did not "re-enlist". I now sense that those who Lead are laser focused on eliminating the 3rd option. All my senses have coalesced to believe this is true. But why? I remain curious. One idea is that "the Leaders" believe that galactic/solar powers are about to challenge all life on this planet. They believe in the model of cataclysmic cycles because they do follow the science. The leaders are prepared and are starting to go underground to wait out the next great reset. Either way, the trauma drama train rolls on (because all the luddites disappeared). OR: Maybe the saying was actually , Lead or Follow and I just imagined that last bit as a challenge to my binary reality.
I suggest the sales technique "Feel, Felt, Found" for getting buy-in from your audience.
- I understand how you feel. Many of us felt that way. But once we (did ***) we found that.....
You shouldn't always be that transparent, but the principle holds. Listen to them, acknowledge they were heard. Let them know they are not alone in their feelings... and that there is a solution that they will be happy with, like those of like-mind. It's inclusionary.
I won't deny that economic self-interest is very, very powerful. And yet I still feel there is something we are all missing. Transgenderism is so wildly irrational that it should have been dismissed almost out of hand--economic self-interest or no economic self-interest-- yet it mysteriously was not. And the sexualization of children crossed a red line which most of us had never dreamed could or would be crossed in any reasonably sane, healthy culture (maybe that's the key), yet it was crossed with apparent ease and little self-reflection. Most of us would not have thought that possible, and I still would not think it possible if I did not see evidence of it every day. And even transgenderism did not have to go there (to child sexualization). They could have stopped short of that. But they did not. There is something gone awry at a very, very deep level in our culture, above and beyond mere crass self-interest.
Those who watched TV news with propaganda spewed from the likes of Anderson Cooper were fair game for the jabs. I remember being shocked when I sat in a nail salon and listened to the local news with scare stories about COVID and then followed by ads for "safe and effective" vaccines pulsing out every 15 minutes. I'd been spared because I do not watch TV in my home. Our vulnerability to the psy-op techniques is not to be taken lightly and people need to be taught how to recognize the propaganda as such and how to protect themselves from its insidious influence.
The subject itself (C-19 vaccines and the new mRNA technology) is very complicated for most people not educated in the field of virology. So, for me, a non expert, it’s been challenging to try and convince other non expert friends that I make more sense than Anthony Fauci.
“a LOT of us were willing to fight back and defend our beliefs in spite of the enormous economic, emotional, and physical toll. What is different about those who buck systems and structures to do what is right regardless of the personal costs?”
I’ve never heard of Lakoff but I wouldn’t touch that question with a ten foot pole.
This is my theory. Just like there are psychopaths and there are also psychopath hunters. All human societies have evolved both these "neurotypes" in numbers that are in rough game theoretic equilibrium. 10% of the population are psychopaths and psychopath adjacent. 10% are psychopath hunters who unlike the cluless remainder (80%) have an ingrained ability and motivation to sniff out psychopathic behaviour in the pack - a well developed amygdala perhaps? This group is sometimes described as "altruistic punishers" in literature (pop psychology?) who basically volunteer their efforts to fight off or punish offending acts of psychopathy
I agree that economic interests often determine values and beliefs, but the last paragraph here seems to convey a lot of “strict parent” feeling/logic. So maybe what “produces” the iconoclast mentality is experiencing the world through the paternalistic lens; in other words, the rebel warrior is the child of the strict parent/father. “It’s a tale as old as time,” as the strict parent might say.
Or, the nurturant parent might say, look what happens between generations in a society based on strict-parent economic interests.
Historical perspective, memories longer than goldfish and the ability/desire to read. How many people have said: you’re not the expert. Maybe not, but I can read!! 🙄 📚
As far as I can tell, the answer to your question is threefold:
1. Inner strength. Related to self-reliance and maturity. One needs to have met sufficiently large challenges in life to build character, without on the other hand having been broken by them.
2. Metaphysical grounding. One needs an inner compass. Many here would just call this faith.
3. Diligence. One needs to be willing to walk the walk.
I've only read most of the first page of the top comments but I haven't seen this mentioned.
Alternative news sources lead to alternative ideas.
I was lucky enough to get in the habit of seeking them out as a young adult and it has kept my mind open.
Big Brother knows what he's doing when he shuts down alternative news and pushes propaganda.
Rebels willing to stand up to insanity: We love. We love the Earth. We love animals (even if we eat them). We love the wonder of children. We want to protect children from harm. WE realize that our life was given by the earth, from the earth, and we had better be for the earth, or it won;t be able to give more life like ours. We detest lies. We detest being manipulated, gaslighted, misled, misinformed. We value original thinking, adventures, explorations, dialogues that go to new understandings. I think most of us know that our life is not ours alone -- we BELONG to what I call "Family Earth" -- [My parents were opposed to negative emotions; we never learned healthy ways to manage anger, frustration, disappointment, sadness. I decided not to trust them on anything -- hence a stubborn independence and willingness to rely on my own sense of reality.
I was raised by hard working do it yourself people and this had and impact on me, but probably my greatest act of bucking the system was to raise my own kids, no daycare or even grandparents help. The first two kids, I lived in poverty but the noticable success came later because the girls have no recollection of doing without. My girls still love to shop at thrift stores. I had a travel trailer on Lake Isabella, east of Bakersfield. There are some precious memories in that trailer and I'm glad I chose to stay with them instead of using government paid daycare etc.
Agreed! There is nothing so game changing and personality maturing as the character building of both the stresses and the enjoyment of raising your children!
I think this guy has some of the answers to your final question.
https://www.midwesterndoctor.com/p/what-can-the-trump-indictments-teach
He actually says almost nothing about the indictments themselves. He's focused on propaganda and politics in general, and how people react to it, and _why_ they react that way. And I think the same reasons he talks about answer some of your questions as well.
He's long-winded, but I think it was still a _very_ good article.
Not that he has all the answers. Just some, I think. One that I don't think he _fully_ correctly answers was the question of WHY do we think? (Or not think?) It's not the same for everyone. (Or at least I don't think it is.) What causes people to fall for propaganda? What causes people to recognize it, think through it, and go 'this is garbage'? What causes people to instinctively reject it before they even fully think it through? He points out that some people have an instinct for 'feeling' the honesty (or lack thereof) of others that gets them labeled 'empaths'. Note that this is NOT the same as empathy. Empathy got way too many people to buy into the propaganda about 'saving grandma' and similar. I think he has a point, though I don't think it's _just_ this. Perhaps stubbornness can also be a cause too. A refusal to be bull-rushed into _any_ position, even by people you 'normally' agree with, would also fit the bill. A 'prove it' mentality, in other words. And there may well be others.
Propaganda is a powerful force, but people _can_ be trained (or train themselves) to see through it. I don't know if we ever actually did such training, but we at least didn't train people to just accept propaganda blindly. Now, unfortunately, we do. And a way to UNtrain as many as possible needs to be found. (Probably multiple ways.)
Kevin,
Thank you so much for your link to the midwesterndoctor’s essay about the Trump indictments and just about everything else I’m concerned about. You couldn’t possibly have known—or maybe you could have—how this longwinded but deeply insightful essay spoke to me. Do you ever read Charles Eisenstein’s substack? He turned me onto Toby Rogers and is another fresh thinker. Blessings.
Toby,
Regarding your question of why progressives become authoritarian if i understood correctly that is the question.
If someone is raised from birth with a trusting world view, they may not be able to change overnight. For instance language is something a person learn effortlessly following birth (or maybe starting before). Lets say later on you move to a new language environment. Depending on how young you are and how adaptable your brain is, you may learn a new language quickly. That is comparable to earning a new attitude or perception. If you don't learn easily or have language aptitude. you may struggle with speaking a new language although the new information is all around you.
Perceptions and emotions are like language. Perceptual shortcuts are like taking a familiar road when we go somewhere, instead of cutting a new trail through the woods or planning a new route. Some perceptions we connect with moral biases. These prepackaged responses are helpful when dealing with complicated undertakings because we can shift some active sensing to the subconscious while engaging in activities that require more attention. Confronting new beliefs can cause cognitive dissonance when the new information conflicts with established patterns of thought and behavior. If a person is deeply embedded in erroneous beliefs accentuated by linked emotions or morals it may take more than simply getting new information to adapt to new pathways of behavior. Both the uncertainty of new and uncomfortable information and the emotions attached to previous experiences or learning can cause people to panic or revert to unhelpful previously learned behaviors, thus ignoring new information or reacting strongly against because it rquires a step outside customary boundaries. The current environment is made more difficult by the fact we are constantly confronted by full spectrum disinformation programming like Operation Mockingbird, which reinforces top down messaging.
This is an interesting idea. I moved to another country at 23 and leaned the language quickly despite it being possible to live here only speaking English. My experience is vastly different from that of other expats. I definitely had assumptions challenged and personal values reinforced despite obstacles. Plus the insights you gain and the way your brain changes when you speak multiple languages is really noticeable. All in all a good growth experience and replicable in many other situations. Just liked the language example as it applies to me perfectly.
Sir Toby, I don't have an answer to your questions, except to say being well-informed is critical to making good decisions, no matter what your political or social persuasion. However, I did have an 'aha' moment regarding the problem of the medical journals having been corrupted by Big Pharma, while watching Del Bigtree interview Dr. Brian Hooker about his new book Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed, co-written with RFK Jr. and now #11 on the NYTimes Best Seller's List. Dr. Hooker is the Chief Scientist for Children's Health Defense, and in his own words, he loves researching science and has a team of scientists working with him at CHD. Maybe Children's Health Defense could publish a scientific/medical journal, starting with all the fantastic papers that are currently being sidelined. What do you think of that?
“What produces the rebels who dedicate themselves to overthrowing corrupt systems rather than trying to fit in?”
The discernment for truth. Rebels have a highly-tuned bullshit meter, from birth. The truth, common sense and the ability to discern lies and pure stupidity is what makes a rebel. I believe rebels are born, not made.
Interesting thought: the old issue of nature vs nurture. Our educational systems, scaffolded by the majority thinking inherent in the relatively new disciplines of sociology and psychology created and injected their nurture theories into our western civilization.
While I don’t deny the influence of that thought, some common sense, brought about by critical thinking, personal observations, and simple logic helped me seriously question the premise of the impact of the large nurture hypothesis! I began questioning the validity of that supposition shortly after the birth of my twin daughters and two more children during my younger years raising them.
The result of my thinking and observations, based on hard science many decades ago,
Thank you for sharing this. There was a very popular saying I frequently heard while serving the the U.S. Army, Lead, Follow or Get the F' Out of the Way. I chose the 3rd option and did not "re-enlist". I now sense that those who Lead are laser focused on eliminating the 3rd option. All my senses have coalesced to believe this is true. But why? I remain curious. One idea is that "the Leaders" believe that galactic/solar powers are about to challenge all life on this planet. They believe in the model of cataclysmic cycles because they do follow the science. The leaders are prepared and are starting to go underground to wait out the next great reset. Either way, the trauma drama train rolls on (because all the luddites disappeared). OR: Maybe the saying was actually , Lead or Follow and I just imagined that last bit as a challenge to my binary reality.
I suggest the sales technique "Feel, Felt, Found" for getting buy-in from your audience.
- I understand how you feel. Many of us felt that way. But once we (did ***) we found that.....
You shouldn't always be that transparent, but the principle holds. Listen to them, acknowledge they were heard. Let them know they are not alone in their feelings... and that there is a solution that they will be happy with, like those of like-mind. It's inclusionary.
I won't deny that economic self-interest is very, very powerful. And yet I still feel there is something we are all missing. Transgenderism is so wildly irrational that it should have been dismissed almost out of hand--economic self-interest or no economic self-interest-- yet it mysteriously was not. And the sexualization of children crossed a red line which most of us had never dreamed could or would be crossed in any reasonably sane, healthy culture (maybe that's the key), yet it was crossed with apparent ease and little self-reflection. Most of us would not have thought that possible, and I still would not think it possible if I did not see evidence of it every day. And even transgenderism did not have to go there (to child sexualization). They could have stopped short of that. But they did not. There is something gone awry at a very, very deep level in our culture, above and beyond mere crass self-interest.
The evidence I have seen suggests that trans is a type of vaccine injury. I wrote about it here:
https://tobyrogers.substack.com/p/trans-messaging-is-too-sophisticated
Those who watched TV news with propaganda spewed from the likes of Anderson Cooper were fair game for the jabs. I remember being shocked when I sat in a nail salon and listened to the local news with scare stories about COVID and then followed by ads for "safe and effective" vaccines pulsing out every 15 minutes. I'd been spared because I do not watch TV in my home. Our vulnerability to the psy-op techniques is not to be taken lightly and people need to be taught how to recognize the propaganda as such and how to protect themselves from its insidious influence.
The subject itself (C-19 vaccines and the new mRNA technology) is very complicated for most people not educated in the field of virology. So, for me, a non expert, it’s been challenging to try and convince other non expert friends that I make more sense than Anthony Fauci.
“a LOT of us were willing to fight back and defend our beliefs in spite of the enormous economic, emotional, and physical toll. What is different about those who buck systems and structures to do what is right regardless of the personal costs?”
I’ve never heard of Lakoff but I wouldn’t touch that question with a ten foot pole.
My guess is destiny :)