196 Comments

I find the best way to get people to think about "vax-ports" is to ask them:

"How many shots are you going to take?"

Then tell them the following:

"Canada has bought 135 million MORE shots for 38 million people. That's 3 MORE each plus extra for spoilage and waste"

Then follow up with:

"Israel just took away privileges from 1.5 million people for refusing the 3rd injection. They've announced the 4th is coming. Lithuania is the same but announcing the 4th & 5th shots"

And finally leave them with this thought:

"You can say "NO" at zero injections or you can say "NO" at 3, 4, 5 and the result is the same. When you REFUSE you lose all your PRIVILEGES because you have NO RIGHTS. You gave them away when you agreed to the vaccine passport"

Expand full comment
author

Those are all excellent points! 🙌

Expand full comment

One of the ways we can appeal to the subconscious without losing the rational is through utilizing the arts to proclaim truth. Artists, arise! We need you.

Give me the making of the songs of a nation. I care not who writes its laws.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

Yep, that is what I say... "you will say no at some point... I just chose to say no earlier"

Expand full comment

This is good.

Expand full comment

I must quote Adretto’s brilliant comment here: “You comply because you want it to end; but it never ends because you complied.”

Expand full comment

""Israel just took away privileges from 1.5 million people for refusing the 3rd injection.." 1.5 million? The last time I read about it in the JPost was about 100k.

Point that they will lose on both counts: a damaged immune system and a very damaged freedom!

57.3k of people in New South Wuhan, Australia, did NOT return for their *second* helping! That is a legit stat we can use.

Expand full comment

Thanks I'll see if I can find updated numbers. Either the initial number was wrong, a lot of people caved in or the JPost is lying. Dr Zelenko says the media control in Israel would make the Chinese envious. He has relatives living there. Either way they've lost their rights to say "no" once they agree to the vax passport. It won't end at injections either. It like all government controls will spread to every aspect of your life.

The Australian goons don't even cut any slack for those people who had adverse events after the first shot. Tough. Get your second or you are out. That type of uncaring dogma is total cult behaviour. Not cult-like but full blown cult.

Expand full comment

It is great to read you, and others, who are well-informed and sharing info.

"Dr Zelenko says the media control in Israel would make the Chinese envious." That is something else indeed! No one can beat the red chings in suppressing communication and thought - and handing our red envelopes.

Expand full comment

Okay the JPost is lying or twisting the truth like a pretzel (kosher pretzel of course). According to Our World In Data the booster juice shots in Israel is just over 4 million as of early November:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-covid-vaccine-booster-doses?country=~ISR

Maybe they meant that "only 100k" have lost their rights so far. They get 6 months from the date of their last injection and then their priviledges go away so it's not all on one date. I'll keep an eye on it. Thanks again.

Expand full comment

Just checked our world in data and it shows doses administered per 100 people. It was flat at just over 100 for April, May, June and July then rose to 160 over August and September. It has been flat since. I'm still trying to find the actual numbers.

Expand full comment

Questions are super, because they have to engage their brain, bypasses the limbic system

Expand full comment

This is a great comment. I would add: change the conversation from shots to something else that benefits “the greater good” but that also requires the forfeiting of bodily autonomy. Let’s use climate or energy consumption as the greater good goals: higher BMI is theoretically bad for the planet. Do you support mandated weigh-ins? How about forced exercise? Cheeseburger consumption caps? Forgive this next one… what about forced abortions? If the answers to these questions are “no,” then philosophical consistency probably requires the answer to be “no” for forced injections as a prerequisite for employment or for broader participation in society.

Expand full comment

I've tried that approach but no where near as thorough as you are LOL. They seem not to care about the blatant contradiction even when it is pointed out to them. Their pat answer to everything is "That's different" with no backing what so ever.

I figure they live in fear so let's give them reasons to be afraid. Pointing out the endless parade of shots coming their way seems to elicit a fear response. Fight fire with fire. I point out that ADE, mad cow, Alzheimer's have all been seen in animals within the equivalent of 2 human years. Ferretts, humanized mice and macaque monkeys all have the ACE2 receptor doorway into the cell like humans do.

Cheer them up. Make their day and smile.

Expand full comment

I really like this approach, I think it could be one of the most effective I've seen so far. Combining this with a variant of Toby's question, so you are comfortable turning over your long-term health to the pharmaceutical industry, and we'll just take boosters whenever they create them?

The problem with bringing up other ways people wouldn't want their rights to bodily sovereignty lost (like abortions, mandatory weight loss, etc) is that those aren't transmissible, and people still have the impression that the vaccines affect transmissibility.

Expand full comment
Nov 28, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

If they think vaccines affect transmission just ask them which of the coutries that rolled out vaccines before us are having success? Point out that Israel, Gibraltar, UK, Iceland, Singapore, Seychelles, Lithuania, Denmark & Ireland are ALL FAILURES with the vaccine.

Expand full comment

Yes, I do the same thing, pointing out the same countries that you just wrote (except for Seychelles which I had never heard of until now). I think pointing this out helps people to at least start to open their eyes. The problem for the untrained eye is that most of these countries report case rates or communilative totals, so people think vaccination is still really helping. People will also say the problems these countries are having is because of the variants, and keep their transmissibility beliefs tucked away unscathed. The feeling I get is that people have an "impression" that it reduces transmission and they feel more safe vaccinated, and that "impression" doesn't fully get pierced with these facts.

Expand full comment
Nov 28, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I am amazed at how much people will rationalise and justify their totally lost position just so they don't have to admit they were wrong. It is full cult behaviour, not just cult-like. Complete with ritual shunning LOL.

The only thing that seems to get through is fear. Fear of more shots and I point out all the negative possibilities to them and always point out the following:

If you took the experimental gene therapy injections here is what you have to look forward to over the next 2-3 years:

1) Sometime between October 2021 and April 2022 we will see if ADE (Antibody Dependent Enhancement) strikes you like it did the animals in 2012

2) Around 18 months we will see if "mad cow" strikes you like it did to the humanised mice that were injected with the spike proteins

3) Around 24 months we will see if Alzheimer's strikes you like it did the Macaque monkeys that were injected with the spike proteins.

4) 60% of the injected have detected 'microclots' with the d-dimer test in the first week after injection. Right side heart failure within 3 years is common.

5) The spike proteins impair your telemerase synthesis which is known to lead to cancer, CVD, diabetes, vascular dementia.

I close with: "We don't know what's going to happen to how many because its an experiment. I'm in the control group. Good luck to everyone".

Expand full comment

Excellent, I like it, countering fear with fear.

Expand full comment
author

Brilliant comment! 🙌🏼 Thank you!!!

Expand full comment

Thought provoking. Even if you're not needing a "vaccine" passport. Plenty of evidence coming out regarding how physically dangerous these genetic concoctions actually are.

Months ago, a friend had this response to being asked, "Will you get the shot?"

"They'll have to hold me down."

Expand full comment

I said this to a friend a month ago and he called me a conspiracy theorist

Expand full comment

What does he say now? :-)

Expand full comment

To quote him directly: "Even though I ignore all your tinfoil links, you should send them every now and then so I know you haven't completely fallen off the edge"

I'm just done talking to some people about COVID. I'm even more red-pilled on COVID than I was a month ago.

From Table 20 COVID deaths in Scotland: “A confirmed COVID-19 related death is defined as an individual who has tested positive by PCR for SARS-CoV-2 ***at any time point*** and has COVID-19 listed as an underlying or contributory cause of death on the death certificate.”

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/10181/21-11-17-covid19-publication_report.pdf

I just can’t take it seriously anymore. What are we even testing? Does COVID exist? This whole pandemic was based on PCR testing which doesn't even tell you if you have the virus. It says that after the sample was run through >28 cycles, they found at least one fragment of something they think is COVID-19.

Expand full comment

Egads, he sounds like a good candidate for my “Letter to a Covidian” (https://margaretannaalice.substack.com/p/letter-to-a-covidian-a-time-travel) 😁 Throw in “Letter to a Holocaust Denier” (https://margaretannaalice.substack.com/p/letter-to-a-holocaust-denier), and that’ll really piss him off 😆

That Scotland definition is extremely revealing, ludicrous, and utterly believable.

Expand full comment

As if I needed even more of an excuse to believe that this is all a scam, this article just dropped. FDA doesn't want to fully release the data from the Pfizer Trial until 2076

https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/fda-asks-federal-judge-to-grant-it

Expand full comment

I saw that. I’m still waiting for my eyeballs to return from their retreat into my skull 🙄

Expand full comment

Wow! 55 years!

Expand full comment

Chris Voss is an FBI agent who negotiated with terrorists for years to get kidnappers to return their victims. He wrote an awesome book, "Never Split the Difference." He has a YouTube channel and a website www.blackswanltd.com. His main point is that you need to listen to the other person and repeat their talking points. Trying to emulate Chris Voss I thought of responding to a family that rejected their nephew from attending Thanksgiving dinner because he was unvaccinated. No matter how he tried to argue, they were too afraid to let him attend. I guess I would start out with, "Seems like you're afraid that vaccination won't protect you. Can you say more about your concerns?" NOTE: They are less defensive. And look, they are now arguing OUR point. That vaccines are not perfect. Voss always states that the point is to end the conversation without breaking the relationship. Maybe I won't get to join my family for Thanksgiving. But maybe they will still know that I care for them. And that treatments exist so that the viral can be stopped from replicating without entering the hospital. There is no one simple message because we are censored. All the public hears is "safe and effective, safe and effective--only vaccines can save us." Avoid getting trapped in vaccines vs. no vaccines. Consider that we need every medical treatment possible to ensure our health and safety. We all need it. And it works.

Expand full comment
author

Gorgeous points! 🙌

Expand full comment

I try and point out logically why they're Nazis. They seem to dislike that term.

Expand full comment

Just mock them. I love to say "Which greeting do you prefer? Da Comrade or Seig Heil? The Bolshevik one or the Nazi one?".

Expand full comment

Da Tovarich for the Russian of 'comrade'.

Expand full comment

Love it.

Expand full comment

If I did that in my circle of family and friends it would not end well. I'd get called the Nazi and bounced out on my buns.

Expand full comment

Check out https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/ Today's post talked about projection which is when a person criticizes another person--noticing in this other person traits that they also might share but wish to deny.

Expand full comment

Do you think that I should call them progressive democrats instead?

Expand full comment

Will they consider it an insult? I think I read that progressive Democrats and the well educated professional class are firmly behind vaccine mandates. Lots of "liberal" journalists such as Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, Breaking Points, Chris Hedges, Richard Wolff, are advising vaccine mandates--stating they will promote herd immunity, they are safe and effective, they are necessary for public health. Any deaths or adverse reactions are a small price to pay for zero Covid. (Please shoot me now! or maybe I should have said jab me now! Either way I might die.)

Expand full comment

Thanks! I really loved your substack article!

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

Diana, thank you for reminding me about Chris Voss. You points are well made and spot on. If you have not taken his Master Class I highly recommend. It is interesting that I have studied him and used his techniques in my work and even in my home but when it comes to politics or freedom or vaccines I tend to - not lose control - but I feel so strongly I don’t want to hang around and even engage. It’s time I buck up and pull my big girl pants on and fight this spiritual, intellectual mind control. Get them to think and expose the truth.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

That's really interesting. The book "How to Break a Terrorist" by Matthew Alexander describes building rapport with suspects as the best means of getting information FROM them. Maybe it works in these circumstances.

Expand full comment

I've added your book to my reading list!

Expand full comment

Chris describes negotiation with a terrorist. The terrorist was requesting $10 million because his Muslim group needed the money for "reparations." The negotiations were held in a foreign language, and the team member who was negotiating despised the terrorist who was also a serial killer and a rapist. Chris told him he HAD to be able to state the terrorist's demands with utter honesty or they would get nowhere. The terrorist was disarmed by his opponent's respect for his position. He relaxed his guard, and the kidnapped diplomat was able to escape and be rescued by a government helicopter. He later called and congratulated Chris. But for some people, respect is a currency as valuable as money. Chris states he would rather win with emotional currency.

Expand full comment

Sounds like a great book, thanks!

Expand full comment

This is really good.

Expand full comment

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I'd don't want to sound like the bleakest of the subscribers so I hope you all understand I'm trying to be as pragmatic and compassionate as I can be. As Laurence Flynn commented earlier, only certain kinds of experience - usually of the negative variety - have a chance to snap someone out of their somnambulant existence. You have to go through some kind of crisis or trauma to have any hope of reevaluating the habitual choices you make every day. That's especially true when it comes to discovering a healthy lifestyle, which to me is the most critical component to your survival in the new reality that covid has created. But the problem started long before the propagation of this new virus. If this country or most others have any chance at a real future, then it's essential that people turn their backs on the "better living through chemistry" philosophy that was born in the post-WWII era. Engineered food - lifeless except for the fortification that goes into it - combined with pharmaceutical drugs that suppress the symptoms which arise from it's consumption are almost entirely to blame for the number of deaths we've see around the world (at least in my humble opinion). And it would be great if more people could be converted to a better way of living. However, just like when you try to help someone struggling with addiction, you can only hope to help them when they are ready to help themselves. The best advice is to live by example, showing your most beloved family and friends the power that exists if they embrace a more wholesome and common sense lifestyle. Don't waste your energy on those that aren't actively seeking a change or those that want to argue and fight with you. Let go of your anger over the broken system and the censorship and corruption that protects it. Unless you want to dedicate your life to activism against those systems, your energy would be far better spent building a garden in your community, teaching cooking classes to young children, and preparing for a life when all the wrong ways of living finally collapse around us. Most of us reading Toby's post already know the Matrix-like prison around us is so wrong and nonsensical, but we have a choice in every moment of our day to begin building a reality that frees us from it and its perverse way of thinking and being. Only through collective community building will the wise and compassionate of us ever find the peace and happiness we seek. All of you please be well!

Expand full comment

What do we do with people like this pensioner who stunned me into silence when he asked me, repeatedly, why would govts lie to us?! A pensioner!

Expand full comment

That makes me sad. Because they have exploited the trust people had, however misplaced it might be. And I think it is testimony to the basic goodness of most people, that they just can't imagine the level of evil that is being perpetrated in real time. I'm glad my veteran dad left us last year, before the tyranny really got going. It would have been painful to witness.

Expand full comment

"And I think it is testimony to the basic goodness of most people.." Exactly. I see the same. That is why people lie to kids, oldies. Young girls and women must learn to understand that!

Expand full comment
Comment removed
Expand full comment

Funny, no one believed I am a billionaire.

Expand full comment
Comment removed
Expand full comment

"... jars of urine scattered around your house".. please do tell us more!

Expand full comment
Comment removed
Expand full comment
Comment removed
Expand full comment

Desmond is his name. Him and his wife proudly got two jabs.. Were fine. I asked him where he got his info from. The TV! I slapped him a little by querying who or what I was talking to since he never appeared on TV. He responded with a wry smile.

No, I was too stunned to answer him. Looking at him, there was nothing I could offer him on the spot.

I told him he will know the truth once he is on the other side. And he said he will remember our conversation!

Expand full comment

It was a question. He is your typical decent old guy; smiley, friendly.

Expand full comment

There are techniques for helping them: reachingpeople.net

Expand full comment

I think the new woke phrase is "Better living through RNA messages."

Expand full comment

At this point, we'll have two chances to change minds. But to be honest the changing of minds won't be done by words. There is nothing you can say to change the mind of the devout. They have to experience something. That will either be the death of many children or it will be seeing neighbours being rounded up and sent to the gulag. Either way, it's too late. Time to face the fact that we've lost this war and plan for how to survive the coming societal armageddon. I'm 95% pessimist and 5% optimist now. But it's the 5% that keeps me going.

Expand full comment

I feel that what we are left with now is setting an example. When people ask us if we are vaccinated we can say no and then maybe some will ask why? Those who do might be open to rational discussion. But just going about our day living our truth I think is all we can do.

Expand full comment

I'm much higher in my optimism. Ardern looks scared out here in NZ.

Expand full comment

Strange policy since it seemed she abandoned Covid zero before she was forced. Perhaps that’s the reason.

Why do you think she looks scared?

Expand full comment

Malicious characters on one side of her and a fed up demographic on the other side many of whom do not believe the narrative and have seen through her. If you watch an hour or so of her you'll see that she's actually not very nice. And the Govt are trying to play it off as 'white supremacist' but from the interactions that I've had, and from what I've seen on the 'TV' (I only really see the videos online as I don't watch TV) the protestors are much more diverse than the politicians are.

Expand full comment

It has plainly been important for the govt in their unvaccinated/vaccinate divide and rule to try and get the vaxx rate to be similar in the different ethnic groups. But it's not. Rural, Maori and Pacifika have lower rates of vaccination. And some of the strongly Maori regions are also at low rates. This government has lost this but they have not given up yet. And the conservative are in the background saying 'pick us instead' thinking that they're better at nastiness I guess.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I am not sure it matters which brain we appeal to. It seems that explaining the rational science doesn't work any better than bluntly announcing the root of the problem in very clear language. I don't think the latter makes us like pharma at all--we are not trying to manipulate people with that language--to the contrary, we would be trying to wake them from their stupor. But from what I have seen, the pharma control is impervious to all of it because they've sucked people in--using billions to inundate with clever marketing campaigns. And if you fell for it and got vaxxed, it's simply too late to change your mind. You cannot get unvaxxed. It seems once your vaxxed, you're committed no matter what. It would take some major event to change that.

Expand full comment

It seems like it’s the seniors in my life with the most regret. I had lunch with an 83+ yo woman today who said she hasn’t been the same since the first shot.

My dad’s first wife (in her mid-80s) had a cerebral thrombosis the day after her booster and then another stroke after surgery. Yes, she’s old, but she hasn’t had stokes before.

My heart hurts for the elderly and the children.

Expand full comment
author

Great points!!!

Expand full comment

"It seems once your vaxxed, you're committed no matter what" ... not necessarily! I had my first jab simply because I was misinformed! articles like this made me question everything. I don't believe in facebook or tiktok scientists but when I read information from researchers and specialists who provide evidence that can be fact checked people who write articles like this are the ones who should be considered and spread. Now I know the fact that I can say NO to my 3ed, 4th vax or I can say No to me second!

Expand full comment

I’m so pleased that you see the light! Welcome, welcome; there’s plenty of room, and the water feels great! (And the metaphors can be shaken or stirred…🤣)

It’s my fervent hope that once people wake up to the Huge Lie about the vax, they will start thinking about other ways we’ve been manipulated and lied to: the vax isn’t the first Huge Lie, and it certainly won’t be the last. From what I can tell, it started around the time the Constitution was signed, but really took off around the Civil War, and then with the genesis of the Federal Reserve. BOTH parties are as corrupt as can be, and most every social issue is manufactured (why? To keep us divided and, ultimately, controlled.). And it’s global.

In any case, I am ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS so thrilled when someone new is able to SEE what’s happening. I have two sisters. I was the first of the three of us to “wake up” (I did, about 10 years ago); my older sister recently admitted to me, “I used to think your views were a bit…extreme…but I think you might be right!” It’s a process, and her family is deeply invested in the system, but she’s coming along. My younger sister, however, told me, “I choose to believe that our leaders have ALL of our best interests at heart.” And then she had her 13 yo and then her 12 yo sons vaxxed as soon as they were available. 🤦‍♀️

Anyway, GOOD FOR YOU!! 🌷🌷👍🏼

Expand full comment

Unvaxxed though is not taking the latest booster shot. So from experience with a friend recently, who has to for his job now, but didn't have to in April, I think he's having second thoughts. Generally people just don't know because they don't have the info. And they don't want to consider their government as being malicious which they clearly are.

Expand full comment

Yes, I think there has been some evolution here (but not enough) --people who were not gung ho to begin with but chose to get vaxxed are now annoyed. But your are correct--their annoyance is not to the level of outrage or "anti" and it's not because they see corruption or safety issues.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I think the other component here is that, since people are operating from a stress response right now, and that fight/flight response is activated, they are looking for a relief from that stress. Big pharma has semingly come to the "rescue" with what people perceive as these "life-saving" vaccines. And people are angry if you suggest they are not life-saving. "How dare you suggest this isn't the thing that will save us all??" So perhaps the solution is that we have to empathize ("I know it was scary when your friend's unvaccinated cousin was hospitalized due to COVID...") but also suggest some practical alternatives ("Since vaccinated are getting covid too, what would you think of exploring some early treatment options?"). I'm trying to get my pro-vax family mentally prepared that we will all likely get covid eventually, and we might as well be ready...I try to be gentle in breaking the truth that the vaccine won't save us, so they don't shoot the messenger.

Expand full comment
author

Good advice! 🙌

Expand full comment

Yes, excellent advice.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I’m not sure if I’m more angry or afraid… the fact that people of ALL levels of, so called, “intelligence” have no deductive reasoning/critical thinking skills to even be able to see the problems with all of this themselves! There are so many logical arguments against all of these measures!!! And they ALL make sense! I pointed out one simple thing to a friend: NEVER BEFORE… never… has a pathogen been so widely tested for not only with a test… but a bogus test (PCR)… There’s absolutely NOTHING to compare it to! And every decision has been based on fear, not real facts. None of the numbers are accurate.. because $ was such a driving factor… and it still is! The same entities, organizations, companies, and countries that have benefited from CV19 ARE STILL BENEFITING FROM IT!!! PHARMa companies more than doubled in value!!! But this is about “health” and “safety”

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I agree that we need a simpler message. On another substack today I found myself annoyed at criticisms of an author - some readers wanted more careful data. While true for RATIONAL people, our mindless lost friends are not analyzing data, they are swallowing soundbites.

So.

I guess we need soundbites.

We can play that game but I'd like us to hold onto our integrity.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I've done both. When approaching with logic, they pull the argument of authority. E.g., The FDA wouldn't approve something that is harmful or Health Canada approved it so it must be safe. When I lead with reptilian appeals (this is about digital currency and the Great Reset, do NOT get the QR code), they look at me, with pity, and brush off my appeals as that of a crazed-lady who has been spending too much time in lockdown, down various rabbit holes rife with conspiracy theories. Both approaches = FAIL.

But, I had an epiphany while reading both this article and Mathew's this morning, about Jung and other psychological theories I haven't thought directly about in a while.

When I've stated to a few people, calmly, that I am not jabbed and have no intention of being so (not appealing to logic or the reptilian brain) , they strike back, often angrily. I was inferring they get angry as they've bought into the cult of "it's a pandemic of the unvaccinated and we are the enemy." However, I am now thinking that they get angry, as I've penetrated their bubble of defence, ever so slightly. I'm not trying to convince them, nor make excuses. They know my background, we have a history, and they can't reconcile what I'm stating with what the media is telling them (anti-vaxxers are right-wing, trump loving, knuckle dragging, anti-science red-necks). So it creates a crack in the glass-wall between our world and the parallel universe where they dwell, characterized by denial.

This won't accomplish much on the spot, but when they come across something else that doesn't make sense, perhaps they will start to come out of their zombie-trance. Hope springs eternal.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I love this piece Toby as it describes the psychology of the vaccine cult that I have been struggling to understand now for the last 18 months and my attempts to try to reach them. I've been trying to open that "industrial metal shutter" but it is locked and impossible to break in to. What will it take for the shop owner to realize he has to open his doors and awaken his unconsciousness? Some will become conscious but many will not and it will be too late. For me, it's about finding the shop owners who's locks have been broken and they just need help opening their steel shutter. Thank you Toby!!!

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I agree that this is a great and much needed piece. So helpful to call out the subconscious nature of it. Thanks for inviting us all to share our thoughts/experiences. My approach has changed a lot over time, but I'm now focusing on the "shop owners with broken locks" that Mitchell mentioned. At that level, it's a completely individualized approach. In those cases, finding something highly emotional to tap into (as you mentioned, Toby) seems like it can get some attention sometimes (strong attachments, sex, security, children't safety, etc.) There are a couple of close relationships in which I've recently shared info on the possibility of temporary shedding after vaccination and said to these people that if they get the booster, I may need to limit my interactions with them for a period of time. I don't like to add more division to this divisive situation, but I think (in these particular cases), realizing that there are consequences and that I take the matter very seriously gives some pause to consider why I feel the way I do. For others who could care less if they see me, this obviously doesn't do a thing. Or for Mitchell's "shop owners whose locks are impossible to break into," this doesn't work either. It's sensing out the possible openings and delicately digging in...

Expand full comment
author

Lovely comment. Thank you! 🙌

Expand full comment
author

❤️🙌🏼

Expand full comment

Sara Vee asked the same question: https://undividedattention.substack.com/p/how-can-we-have-thoughtful-productive

My thoughts there were: emotive narrative. Logic and reason were not used to transition and thus will not work to undo the transition.

Socratic questioning may help. People will need to be triggered into making connections and coming to realisations. They will or cannot be told, but have to work it out themselves.

Expand full comment

You cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into....Swift.

Expand full comment

Love it, and exactly what I meant.

Expand full comment

I am not sure Socratic questioning is effective. I have been dishing these two out and got silences in response.

1. Why would govts need to force people, directly and via proxy, to take something if they can prove it is safe and effective?

2. Are you aware that some countries (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, etc) and some States and unis in USA don't have compulsory vaccination policies? Are those said jurisdictions care less about their people than others who do?

Expand full comment

Is that Socratic questioning? I am reading "The Republic" and the first chapter is an account of Socrates doing his Socratic questioning thing.

The questions are very simple, and do not wrap conclusions in themselves, but rather lead someone down a path.

Looking at your first question, there is an assumption there that governments are forcing people. I agree, and would say that this is a truth.

However, the way your question is structured, this is you telling someone something as part of the question, not asking them to reach that conclusion themselves through a series of questions leading up to that as a realisation.

Based on my albeit limited reading and exposure to Socratic questioning, my suggestion would be that what you are asking here is not it.

Expand full comment

"my suggestion would be that what you are asking here is not it."

What / how you are asking the question.

I need to analyse the structure of his questioning method, but part of it is closed questions - asking someone why is an open question, and also asks the person to know the mind and will of the government.

Something that is pretty much impossible to do.

Expand full comment

"also asks the person to know the mind and will of the government.

Something that is pretty much impossible to do."

Govts, and individuals, must know why they are doing or not doing things. Otherwise that would imply they don't know and merely following a script. It is the reasoning of an action or inaction that proves cognition. Like reasoning in an essay, or show workings to a math answer.

The "why" requires an articulated response. We are doing this for the following reasons....That is answering a "why". In fact, the NSW health orders actually stated their reasons for them.

If there is no answer to a question, it follows that purported conduct or course of action is inconsistent or invalid.

We force children to do certain things because they are incapable of understanding the purpose of them or the explanation for them. Otherwise, there is no valid, logical basis to force people to do something without proving it is safe and effective. This is the reason why people lie: because they cannot face the truth, or cannot justify their conduct.

If they have it, flaunt it. Otherwise it follows that they don't have it.

Expand full comment

* - asking someone, "Why ....< ... >", is an open question,

Expand full comment

Socrates or Plato?

Expand full comment

If that is a question to me, I do not understand it.

Expand full comment

Plato wrote "the Republic" and was a student of Socrates

Expand full comment

I know. I have the book and am reading it, as mentioned in the comment above.

The first chapter is an account of Socrates doing his Socratic questioning thing.

Looks like you didn't understand the question, "Socrates or Plato?" either.

Expand full comment

LOL. I thought so!

OK. Let's remove the label. Can you, or anyone, answer them?

I thought that by "wrapping" conclusions in them would make people see the obvious. I have actually asked those questions of strangers. They paused and evaded.

Re the Q1. It is not an assumption. It is a fact. We have mandates in addition to "no jab, no job" by employers; a "condition" of entry by some businesses - the proxies.

Expand full comment

"... make people see the obvious ..."

Has that worked for you before?

IME, I have rarely if ever been able to make people see something I think is obvious.

Expand full comment

Oh, they did; but they won't acknowledge it. Proof? Their silences, or wry smiles. I am sure you have had experiences where you saw people recognised what you said but won't openly acknowledged or accepted it.

I had a debate with another guy re Q1. He kept insisting "no jab, no job" was not "forced" yet he could not refute me when I pointed to other examples. I forgot to expressly counter him with "if it is not forced, why have it?". As we ended our chat, he said he listened to no one. I pointed to the irony that he listened to them that "no jab, no job" is not forced. He went inside!

You would be surprised to discover that what was "obvious" to you was not obvious to others. Have you played chess? That is why we are advised not to assume, unless we articulate our assumptions to them.

Expand full comment

Is silence usually how you know you have made people see the obvious?

IME when people are silent, or give a wry smile, it's because they disagree but do not wish to be confrontational, so they say nothing to avoid engaging in a disagreement.

IME very few people are capable of verbally disagreeing in real life interactions.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

All comments I've read are fantastic and touch on many aspects of the situation, so it is clearly not straightforward.

As it was with Galileo, he saw and understood the data, the church did not.

As it was in WWII, the Allies believed in "our side" to cooperate and do good, while the other side followed the propaganda but believed they too were doing good.

Both situations took years to resolve.

I talked to a vaccinated 20ish person who had not heard about the Nuremberg trials and why they happened.

.

If I'm a vaccinated person, telling me that I did wrong or will develop blood clots, strokes, dementia, heart attacks or even die will only make me close my ears because it's not acceptable that I may have made a wrong decision and may have hurt myself. I must defend that I did the right thing.

Freedom of choice or medical privacy is also not an argument to the vaccinated who did it "for the greater good".

The trust in the system seems to be the underlying problem.

Why would the government hurt us?

Why would Pharma hurt us?

Take this pill, don't worry about your diet.

Eat this processed food, if you get sick we'll fix you.

.

There is too much reliance on others to keep us safe and healthy. And when they offer up stuff, we take it without questioning.

.

Fortunately, the narrative is unraveling as real data is coming to light.

Fortunately, people are willing to say no to the 3rd or 4th shot.

Fortunately, many parents are saying no to their 5 year old being injected.

Unfortunately, many innocent children will die needlessly because their parents think they will be "doing the right thing".

Unfortunately, more adults will die after the 3rd, 4th or 5th dose.

We need to stay the course, share the data, defend our freedom to choose and defend our medical privacy until this ship can turn around.

This is our WWIII.

It will take time, but if we give in to these thugs, they will be injecting us with all sorts of deadly liquids forevermore.

.

I want to go back to the good old days when I argued with people about reversing diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure and obesity using Low Carb, Keto or Carnivore diets - which would also eliminate all the comorbidities that people are dying from, hmmm.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

Eugyppius has an interesting take on this: https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/how-to-argue-and-how-this-ends

It's very apparent at this point that arguing rationally with people who don't realize that they have already drunk the kool-aid is a losing proposition, however there is very damning data in the pharma trials themselves so maybe trying to get people to actually read those studies can help some (however literacy in statistical methods is rare).

Alex Berenson noted this week that the CDC has simply stopped reporting data that reflects badly on the vaccine efficacy, ratios of infection, etc so at least for the US the stats can't even speak for themselves. I half expect total censorship as excess mortality climbs, at least here in the US. They may simply stop reporting anything of substance.

I am planning my exit from productive society and moving to the reddest state possible. In the end our survival and health may be the lasting proof, but even that is very problematic if we are denied access to hospitals or other care without the gene therapy.

Expand full comment

Do you know which state you are thinkung about? I've co e to that conclusion. Just ' Afraid' it won't matter where you go. I pray I-m wrong.

Expand full comment

I have been studying why so many people I know, family included, were so quick to believe that they were doing their civic duty to put their arm out, with total trust and no looking back. And it is because since they were children they have been blinded to the indoctrination of how the system has groomed them to act for the system's good, and not their own. Rewards were readily provided as replacement from the struggle to survive as autonomous individuals; who from their struggle gain insight into reality. These people I speak about, were prevented from that, from the start. And, they have been deceived all along to think they were doing good, because the system told them so. It didn't come from within, that wouldn't be acceptable. and not trustworthy in the eyes of the system. Thus, few of them have had the courage over their years of grooming to question why the perks have been so good, and their lives have gained status, wealth and recognition from those who groomed them. The walls of the box, of their reality, are too thick. I have to say I feel sorry for these people. I don't see them as Nazis--my ancestors were in the holocaust--I see them as victims to their own demise, as the system they have always believed in--now a reflection of themselves--crumbles.

Here is a very good blog post from bad cattitude--it follows well after yours:

https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/anatomy-of-a-a-dependency-culture?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoyOTI2MzQzNiwicG9zdF9pZCI6NDQxMzIyOTAsIl8iOiI2b2FQdCIsImlhdCI6MTYzNzE1ODM0OSwiZXhwIjoxNjM3MTYxOTQ5LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMzIzOTE0Iiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.Fq18vhUpkXqtYRm-ogV6-iowYvoBjr5TcuG4zH-gB0w

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I think the mistake might be trying to convince them of anything. It’s very difficult to reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into said Thomas Sowell.

Some of us saw the never-ending “vaccine” train right from the start and refused to get on board. Many of us smelled a rat with this whole “Covid” scam at the outset. We are the fortunate ones.

There are some people who are going to march themselves off a cliff no matter what. As with drugs and alcohol, same with “Covid”.

But we should treat them kindly, firstly for the sake of our own souls, and secondly because alcoholics and drug addicts who have truly reformed of their own volition can make the best anti drug-and-alcohol campaigners. Let’s make the side of truth be the warmly welcoming side of goodness and love.

Superior argumentation is far less effective at changing hearts and minds than is simply living the truth, in beauty, with goodness, no matter what. The second way is more personally demanding, but far more rewarding, for many more reasons than just the obvious.

Expand full comment

Both Jordan Peterson and Bill Maher are good examples of this. They both took the first 2 jabs and now are publicly speaking out against more jab mandates.

Jordan said that he took the jab on the understand that if he did that the govt would then leave him alone with mask mandates and other restrictions. But now they have such restrictions and rules for the vaxxed too.

Bill said that he took the first 2 doses even though he didn't want to because "I took it for the team" but he won't be taking more boosters.

Expand full comment

While others in the vax-regret club don’t have such levels of intellectual honesty and insist that others be forced to follow them into the minefield.

Expand full comment
Nov 17, 2021Liked by Toby Rogers

I have spent the last three months in the most anguished turmoil as most of my family and friends have gotten the jab. I am finding new friends….a new tribe and I am feeling empowered and of course terrified as my 16 year old son has gotten the jab. I did not feel I could stop him and his dad (my ex) I am doing everything in my power to keep him away from the booster.

At this point I do not talk about the vaccine to my former friends and family. My focus is my son and myself. Staying as healthy as I can to do what I can in my power to join the mass numbers of us standing up. I have been quiet for too many years as I’ve watched the takeover of Big Pharma.

I know I do a fuck ton more research then any of my friends and family combined. I just keep reminding myself I am not alone… I just happen to momentarily be surrounded by zombies. Hey, how is your 24/7 cognitive dissonance treating you?

A very smart and dear old friend of mine just invited me to her backyard chili cook-off. She said not to worry because everyone was vaccinated.

I’d like to show up with a big bucket of chili and dump it on top of everyone else’s chili and say,

“I hope y’all have a nice day”

Expand full comment